It was an awkward encounter beamed around the world.
Kevin Rudd, former prime minister turned ambassador to Trump’s America, sat across from the US president as an Australian journalist brought up some choice remarks Rudd had once made about Trump on social media.
“Did an ambassador say something bad about me?” Trump asked, looking to Prime Minister Anthony Albanese. “Where is he? Is he still working for you?”
Yes, Albanese said, gesturing to Rudd across the cabinet table. Trump locked eyes with him. “I don’t like you either,” he said, seemingly half-joking. “And I probably never will.”
The moment dominated headlines in an otherwise highly successful meeting between the two leaders, even though Trump and Rudd later made up.
Rudd, speaking in his first Australian interview since leaving the ambassador’s post, opened up about what happened in the moments after his “celebrated exchange” with the US president.
As the media left the room, Rudd recalls, “The president asked Albo something along these lines, ‘So, who is this guy?’.
“To which Albo said, ‘this is Kevin, he’s our ambassador’. To which the president then said, looking at me squarely in the eyeballs, ‘Well, he looks like a nice guy to me’. To which Albo said, ‘Well, he is. That’s why I sent him here as ambassador’.
“To which Trump looked at me again and says, ‘Well you look like a nice guy to me, all’s forgiven, that’s fine’.
“That’s kind of how it ended within five minutes of the exchange which was broadcast to Australia and to the world. And I think that’s quintessentially President Trump.”
Rudd says he harbours no ill will that the president confronted him so publicly, but praised him off-camera.
“If you’ve been around politics for as long as I have, you just accept that as par for the course. Sometimes people say things publicly and on the record which they then qualify in an off-the-record environment.”
He also dispels the notion that the incident had contributed to his early departure as ambassador, and he rejects any suggestion that he was pushed out by Canberra – as some people still speculate.
“That’s just an absolute nonsense,” he says. “The truth is, I was on track to serve four years. Then the Asia Society presidency became vacant. It would not be available at the end of four years … So I could stay for another year and not have a position to go to as the head of a global think tank, or I could leave after three and become the head of a global think tank. It’s about as simple as that.”
Rudd says that, in fact, his access to the US administration only improved after the “character-building” White House encounter with Trump. “It didn’t go in reverse at all … Was that simply because they knew me better over time, or was it a consequence of this exchange? That I can’t judge.”
But access alone is not enough, he says. In diplomacy, one must have a powerful argument – in this case, one that is couched in America First terms.
“To simply go in [and] say: here I am, I’m Captain Australia, and have I got a beaut idea for my nation – that’s not going to get you past first base.
“If you go in and say: here I am, I’m Captain Alliance, and here’s something which can work for America, and it can also work for us … If you get that right with team Trump, you can travel a long way.”
The former Australian PM says he will one day return home – he’s “a Queenslander through and through” – but for now, the US is where, as a world-leading China expert, he believes he can wield the most influence to help avert a catastrophic war between the world’s two largest economies.
“I kinda know this stuff, and therefore the place to be is here. It’s not that Australia is irrelevant to it – Australia is part of a much broader equation where the principal drivers are here and in Beijing, and in Taiwan.”
Rudd also dismissed once and for all that he could pursue the job of UN secretary-general. He was a candidate in 2016 until then-prime minister Malcolm Turnbull refused his request to be nominated. Because of the way UN rotations work, the role is now unlikely to be available to someone from Australia for decades.
“Zero possibility,” the 68-year-old says. “The chance for doing that was 10 years ago. I know you may think I’m youthful. But in 40 years’ time, I may not be.”
Start the day with a summary of the day’s most important and interesting stories, analysis and insights. Sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter.
Michael Koziol is the North America correspondent for The Age and Sydney Morning Herald. He is a former Sydney editor, Sun-Herald deputy editor and a federal political reporter in Canberra.Connect via X or email.
Peter Hartcher is political editor and international editor of The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.Connect via email.